[alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages

[ccallen]

>> Personally I think it's already assumed by most people on the list.
It would seem that anyone who had serious commercial interest would be aware
of the issues involved with posting sensitive confidential material to the
internet. However, the fact that this topic continues to come up is evidence
that there are at least some people who feel that they have not been treated
in the manon they expected.

I totally agree that the lurkers and professionals dont need to be reminded
of the dangers of the internet, and that "most" of the people on this list
know how to take care of themselves. However I would not agree that these
are the people whom this whole topic is concerned with. I would just be
careful about giving anyone a personal guarntee that if they posted thier
confidential to the internet that AIF was somehow going to manage to
represent them in any potential legal action.

I also feel that the whole point of this venture is so that people can
present and discuss ideas in an open venue. General technique is probably a
safe thing to talk about, but I have seen many people discuss great / unique
ideas openly, then they come back and say "Wait a minute ...". I hope that
people continue to participate, but also to use a little discression about
what they can / cant talk about so they dont feel hurt / violated
afterwords. How AIF feels about this is completely up to the pricipals of
AIF to decide.

Conan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anne Kootstra" <anne@aiml.info>
To: <alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages


> Indeed you are right, the Board should make the final decision. However,
we
> can discuss the options and make a recommendation to the Board. This
should
> not put us in any legal trouble.
>
> In any case I agree with you that the safest choice is the Public Domain
> one. Personally I think it's already assumed by most people on the list.
So,
> that would only confirm what is already presumed to be the case.
>
> --Anne
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org
> > [mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org] Namens ccallen
> > Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2003 20:39
> > Aan: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> > Onderwerp: Re: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages
> >
> >
> > Because of the legal nature of this matter, I feel that any
> > final decisions on this matter be made by the principal of
> > the corporation (i.e. autorized officer or the board). I am
> > not a legal professional and none of this is meant as legal
> > advise. For actual advise on legal matters you should talk
> > with a licensed legal professional.
> >
> > Unless there are legal professionals among us, option 1 might
> > be safest: By default, everything is public domain, it is the
> > poster responsibilty to apply thier own copywrite notice and
> > exercise their own judgement before posting confidential
> > material to an internet news group.
> >
> > Option 2 could be interpreted as AIF is go to prosecute
> > copyright violators, thus giving a false sense of security
> > and lead to someone making a decision to post thier
> > sensitive, propriatary information to the news group which
> > could lead to financial damages
> >
> >
> > Also:
> > Creating contracts that will hold up in court are tricky. And
> > if an actual legal dispute broke out between the people on
> > the list, it is possible that option 2 could get the
> > orginization (and those responsible for the creation and
> > interpretation of the contract(s)) drug into it middle of it.
> > And because this is a corporation, someone who is licensed to
> > practice law must be hired to represent the corporation (very
> > expensive and a complete waste of money). Also, some of the
> > activities revolving around the creation of legally binding
> > contracts could be construed as practicing law.
> >
> > Consider:
> > If A decided to sue B based upon A's interpretation of AIF's
> > contracts, and A lost the case because AIF's contracts were
> > flawed, could A obtain a legal judgement against the person /
> > persons responsible for drafting the flawed contracts?
> >
> > Dont laugh, this kind of thing happens. There are a lot of
> > people who have sunk a lot of time (and possibly money) into
> > their AIML efforts, emotions are involved, people are afraid
> > of getting hurt. Legal battles are typically very ugly, I for
> > one would not want to put myself in the middle this kind of thing.
> >
> > Just being a member of a committee does no make one an
> > employees, officer, or director and will not be indemnified
> > by AIF in the case of a legal troubles (AIF does not have a
> > large legal defense fund to begin with). Dabbling in the
> > legal world is very expensive and it's all comes out of
> > someones pocket. I say let AIF make the actual decision.
> >
> > Conan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Anne Kootstra" <anne@aiml.info>
> > To: <alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:15 AM
> > Subject: RE: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages
> >
> >
> > > These are indeed good basic rules and I think most people on this
> > particular
> > > mailing list are aware of them. However, this doesn't cover the
> > > current archived AIML examples that were posted on the mailing
> > > list(s).
> > >
> > > Some of these examples have been used in AIML
> > knowledgebases that were
> > > developed for commercial purposes. The implications of applying the
> > > GPL to the archive(s) is therefore very large for these firms. In
> > > extreme cases this means that the commercial value of an KB
> > could be
> > > severely affected.
> > >
> > > Now, this may be solved by good setting up elaborate contracts.
> > > However,
> > and
> > > this is something I'm more worried about, it may actually prevent
> > > people from sharing *any* code with others. This may be an overkill
> > > reaction, but an understandable from a programmer point of
> > view. One
> > > who is not sure of the legal status of his or her post will most
> > > likely be more careful with sharing (parts of) an innovative idea.
> > >
> > > The academic licence you mentioned is certainly an option. One that
> > > may be of use to a lot of people, but again what may be the
> > real world
> > > effect of this? Applying it to complete AIML files would certainly
> > > create a more
> > fair
> > > environment for the original author. However, I have some doubts
> > > regarding the usefulness of this licence for the current
> > mail archive.
> > >
> > > Many code examples have found their way to files that may,
> > or may not,
> > > be used in commercial AIML files (assuming they exist). In the case
> > > the/an academic licence is applied to the archive (and
> > future posts)
> > > it will mean people will have to go over their code to see
> > whether or
> > > not there's any code there that came from the mailing list. Again a
> > > situation that is not desirable and should be avoided, whenever
> > > possible.
> > >
> > > Maybe it would be a good idea to have a preliminary vote on
> > this. From
> > > my view there are roughly two systems we can apply here.
> > >
> > > 1.
> > > Action:
> > > We consider the archive and future posts to be public domain.
> > >
> > > Effect:
> > > - No licences need to be adapted.
> > > - Education of the community of the consequences of this decision.
> > >
> > > 2.
> > > Action:
> > > We apply a commercial restrictive licence. (GPL, Academic, etc)
> > >
> > > Effect:
> > > - commercial licences need to be altered.
> > > - existing contracts may need altering.
> > > - number of code examples may be reduced.
> > > - education of the community
> > >
> > > In the case that option 2 is preferred we could discuss the several
> > > licences. Otherwise this would not be needed.
> > >
> > > --Anne
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > > > Van: alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org
> > > > [mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org] Namens ccallen
> > > > Verzonden: vrijdag 21 februari 2003 19:51
> > > > Aan: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> > > > Onderwerp: Re: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list
> > > > messages
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A general rule of thumb is if you have ideas for building
> > your own
> > > > commercial system, dont blast them out onto an internet mailing
> > > > list. Dont use GPL'ed code, or other people's protected code.
> > > > Translate your ideas into a design and write your code from
> > > > scrtatch. And once you start to generate interesting
> > code, dont post
> > > > it to a news group.
> > > >
> > > > A second rule is that the world is a competitive place full of
> > > > highly skilled people looking for fresh ideas. If you have a cool
> > > > idea, chances are someone else has had that same idea and may
> > > > actually be working on it. If you do have an orginal idea, once
> > > > you've blasted it to a news group you can pretty much
> > kiss it good
> > > > bye.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone ever considered a different kind of licensing? The GPL
> > > > seems to be geared more toward the commercial world. An Achedemic
> > > > type license might be a better fit for AimlBot. One where it says
> > > > you are free to use the code for non-commercial use only
> > and if you
> > > > intend to use the code in a commercial system you must
> > negotiate a
> > > > license (usually with some royalties
> > > > involved) with the holders to the rights to the code.
> > This leads to
> > > > the question, who holds the rights to the code? Is it
> > AIF, Richard
> > > > Wallace, the individuals who wrote the code?
> > > >
> > > > Conan
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > alicebot-archcomm mailing list alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> > > http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > alicebot-archcomm mailing list alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> > http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> alicebot-archcomm mailing list
> alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm
>