[alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages

[Anne Kootstra]

Indeed you are right, the Board should make the final decision. However, we
can discuss the options and make a recommendation to the Board. This should
not put us in any legal trouble. 

In any case I agree with you that the safest choice is the Public Domain
one. Personally I think it's already assumed by most people on the list. So,
that would only confirm what is already presumed to be the case.

--Anne



 

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org 
> [mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org] Namens ccallen
> Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2003 20:39
> Aan: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> Onderwerp: Re: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages
> 
> 
> Because of the legal nature of this matter, I feel that any 
> final decisions on this matter be made by the principal of 
> the corporation (i.e. autorized officer or the board). I am 
> not a legal professional and none of this is meant as legal 
> advise. For actual advise on legal matters you should talk 
> with a licensed legal professional.
> 
> Unless there are legal professionals among us, option 1 might 
> be safest: By default, everything is public domain, it is the 
> poster responsibilty to apply thier own copywrite notice and 
> exercise their own judgement before posting confidential 
> material to an internet news group.
> 
> Option 2 could be interpreted as AIF is go to prosecute 
> copyright violators, thus giving a false sense of security 
> and lead to someone making a decision to post thier 
> sensitive, propriatary information to the news group which 
> could lead to financial damages
> 
> 
> Also:
> Creating contracts that will hold up in court are tricky. And 
> if an actual legal dispute broke out between the people on 
> the list, it is possible that option 2 could get the 
> orginization (and those responsible for the creation and 
> interpretation of the contract(s)) drug into it middle of it. 
> And because this is a corporation, someone who is licensed to 
> practice law must be hired to represent the corporation (very 
> expensive and a complete waste of money). Also, some of the 
> activities revolving around the creation of legally binding 
> contracts could be construed as practicing law.
> 
> Consider:
> If A decided to sue B based upon A's interpretation of AIF's 
> contracts, and A lost the case because AIF's contracts were 
> flawed, could A obtain a legal judgement against the person / 
> persons responsible for drafting the flawed contracts?
> 
> Dont laugh, this kind of thing happens. There are a lot of 
> people who have sunk a lot of time (and possibly money) into 
> their AIML efforts, emotions are involved, people are afraid 
> of getting hurt. Legal battles are typically very ugly, I for 
> one would not want to put myself in the middle this kind of thing.
> 
> Just being a member of a committee does no make one an 
> employees, officer, or director and will not be indemnified 
> by AIF in the case of a legal troubles (AIF does not have a 
> large legal defense fund to begin with). Dabbling in the 
> legal world is very expensive and it's all comes out of 
> someones pocket. I say let AIF make the actual decision.
> 
> Conan
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anne Kootstra" <anne@aiml.info>
> To: <alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org>
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:15 AM
> Subject: RE: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list messages
> 
> 
> > These are indeed good basic rules and I think most people on this
> particular
> > mailing list are aware of them. However, this doesn't cover the 
> > current archived AIML examples that were posted on the mailing 
> > list(s).
> >
> > Some of these examples have been used in AIML 
> knowledgebases that were 
> > developed for commercial purposes. The implications of applying the 
> > GPL to the archive(s) is therefore very large for these firms. In 
> > extreme cases this means that the commercial value of an KB 
> could be 
> > severely affected.
> >
> > Now, this may be solved by good setting up elaborate contracts. 
> > However,
> and
> > this is something I'm more worried about, it may actually prevent 
> > people from sharing *any* code with others. This may be an overkill 
> > reaction, but an understandable from a programmer point of 
> view. One 
> > who is not sure of the legal status of his or her post will most 
> > likely be more careful with sharing (parts of) an innovative idea.
> >
> > The academic licence you mentioned is certainly an option. One that 
> > may be of use to a lot of people, but again what may be the 
> real world 
> > effect of this? Applying it to complete AIML files would certainly 
> > create a more
> fair
> > environment for the original author. However, I have some doubts 
> > regarding the usefulness of this licence for the current 
> mail archive.
> >
> > Many code examples have found their way to files that may, 
> or may not, 
> > be used in commercial AIML files (assuming they exist). In the case 
> > the/an academic licence is applied to the archive (and 
> future posts) 
> > it will mean people will have to go over their code to see 
> whether or 
> > not there's any code there that came from the mailing list. Again a 
> > situation that is not desirable and should be avoided, whenever 
> > possible.
> >
> > Maybe it would be a good idea to have a preliminary vote on 
> this. From 
> > my view there are roughly two systems we can apply here.
> >
> > 1.
> > Action:
> > We consider the archive and future posts to be public domain.
> >
> > Effect:
> > - No licences need to be adapted.
> > - Education of the community of the consequences of this decision.
> >
> > 2.
> > Action:
> > We apply a commercial restrictive licence. (GPL, Academic, etc)
> >
> > Effect:
> > - commercial licences need to be altered.
> > - existing contracts may need altering.
> > - number of code examples may be reduced.
> > - education of the community
> >
> > In the case that option 2 is preferred we could discuss the several 
> > licences. Otherwise this would not be needed.
> >
> > --Anne
> >
> >
> > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > > Van: alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org
> > > [mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org] Namens ccallen
> > > Verzonden: vrijdag 21 februari 2003 19:51
> > > Aan: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> > > Onderwerp: Re: [alicebot-archcomm] copyright on mailing list 
> > > messages
> > >
> > >
> > > A general rule of thumb is if you have ideas for building 
> your own 
> > > commercial system, dont blast them out onto an internet mailing 
> > > list. Dont use GPL'ed code, or other people's protected code. 
> > > Translate your ideas into a design and write your code from 
> > > scrtatch. And once you start to generate interesting 
> code, dont post 
> > > it to a news group.
> > >
> > > A second rule is that the world is a competitive place full of 
> > > highly skilled people looking for fresh ideas. If you have a cool 
> > > idea, chances are someone else has had that same idea and may 
> > > actually be working on it. If you do have an orginal idea, once 
> > > you've blasted it to a news group you can pretty much 
> kiss it good 
> > > bye.
> > >
> > > Has anyone ever considered a different kind of licensing? The GPL 
> > > seems to be geared more toward the commercial world. An Achedemic 
> > > type license might be a better fit for AimlBot. One where it says 
> > > you are free to use the code for non-commercial use only 
> and if you 
> > > intend to use the code in a commercial system you must 
> negotiate a 
> > > license (usually with some royalties
> > > involved) with the holders to the rights to the code. 
> This leads to 
> > > the question, who holds the rights to the code? Is it 
> AIF, Richard 
> > > Wallace, the individuals who wrote the code?
> > >
> > > Conan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > alicebot-archcomm mailing list alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
> > http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm
> >
> 
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