[alicebot-archcomm] Computerizing Common Sense
Kino Coursey
alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:39:25 -0500
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Two additional files you may find useful wrt Opencyc
OpenCyc KB in DAML format (they forgot the update the date side bar so it
looks old)
http://www.cyc.com/2002/04/08/cyc.daml
ThoughtTreasure in CycL format. Lots of assertions about everyday stuff.
http://www.signiform.com/tt/ttkb/tt0.00022.cycl.gz
Also some additional KB pointers at
http://www.daxtron.com/Ontology.htm
Same here with the early download. Got it running and checking it out. It is
currently more like Rich's Prolog PSYCH, only with a full first order
predicate calculus engine optimized for set relation processing and term
indexing instead of a generic prolog engine. Think a pre-filled logic
engine. Template based parser to follow. (Hmmmm, sounds like a job for a
certain language I know....)
Rich's complaint about the corporate welfare is not totally without merit, I
just see it as an emergent phenomenon of their origin and business. CYC corp
started as part of MCC which was a government/industry response to Japan's
logic based fifth generation computing project in the 1980's (which you can
also get free online now). When Cyc was spun off, they stuck close to the
money supply to keep the staff. I worked at Generous Dynamics for several
years, and every DOD aircraft problem required an F-16 solution. Close Air
Support ? F-16. Deep Strike? F-16. Strategic Bombing? F-16. Anti-satellite
weapon launch platform? F-16. Did you know it can be used for forward
resupply? So it wouldn't surprise me that the CYC group would write up
papers for every request for proposal where a computer has to put two facts
together. It would surprise me if they didn't. (p.s. I really am a
pokadotted dog libertarian. However, no mater how much I would hope for
better I just don't expect better/different behavior given the environment.)
>From walking around the outside of the blackbox I agree that the internals
are probably a mess, but for a reason. While everything can be defined in
logic, implementing it would be dog slow relative to what they want to do.
The Japanese attacked the problem by building special hardware. The Cyc team
did it all in software, and waited 15 years for technology to catch up. So
there are lots of optimization's, that short out the clean logic model yet
give logically consistent answers. They also index every single term they
store and infer, no matter what the position. Kinda like google indexing the
web. How they do both, get logically consistent results without killing the
speed is probably their core 'secret'. But something similar could be said
for the Alicebot Graphmaster. Also, part of the 15 year delay may be that
finally PC's have enough power to run it and give you answers in your life
time.
An analogy to graphics processing comes to mind. While photorealistic
generation is well know, and can be implemented with raytracing, doing so is
just to slow. So when the first simulations came out, they used special
hardware. That same hardware is in most of our video cards. But the big gain
in speed came from optimizations and analysis. In first person shooters it
came with raycasting, a short cut way to make similar pictures in real time.
Now what once cost thousands and millions of dollars can be found in some
cereal boxes. An when you look at raycasters relative to raytracers, its not
pretty with long lapses into assembly for efficiency. But it does work.
The nice thing about finally having a "free" copy is you can prove to
yourself that it is not a dwarf on the inside, or its not relaying all the
data to a bank of question answerers in Bangkok. Using a prolog analogy, the
prolog engine is free but not open, but all the predefined logic is both
free and open, and modifiable. You can browse it, submit queries,and
knowledge to it and ask for explanations. You can dump the insides out in
XML/DAML format, and mine it for gems. You can put it on your Linux watch,
as long as its x86 compatible and have 256 MB free.
Other gov funded, basically welfare projects have had positive benefit,
mostly in the infrastructure arena. Wither Cyc is a on par in the long run
with say the Hoover Dam or the shuttle however remains to be proven. I do
think Lenat and company were 'True Believers' when they started the project.
Did they invest 15 years of their life in it because they still believe in
it, or just because it became the thing to do? (like staying in a bad
marriage or job because you have nothing else to do). And just because you
believe in something does not mean anyone else will find any good in it. We
are about to find out both what they really believe and just how useful it
is. They are about to find out if the past 15 years have been worth it.
Enjoy,
Kino
p.s. Has anyone written a Lisp or Prolog AIML interpreter? If so you could
write one in OpenCyc, and beat the parser wait.
-----Original Message-----
From: alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org
[mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org]On Behalf Of Anne Kootstra
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:06 PM
To: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
Subject: RE: [alicebot-archcomm] Computerizing Common Sense
Yes, I was able to download it but that was about two days ago.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org
[mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org]Namens Jon Baer
Verzonden: woensdag 10 april 2002 18:44
Aan: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
Onderwerp: Re: [alicebot-archcomm] Computerizing Common Sense
If I could ever get to download that 40mb file Id be able to say but I
have not had one iota of luck getting the whole thing. Sourceforge is so
painfully slow ... has anyone gotten to it yet?
- Jon
Eugene Lebedev wrote:
I would like to get some understanding too. Does it mean something
for ALICE or not? The simplest ideas are : - That knowledge base could be
quite useful for Alice. - Possible integration could give ALICE additional
publicity. But do we need it? Do we have to consider integration with other
technology at all? I'm sure that other members could bring more interesting
idea than these.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Baer
To: alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [alicebot-archcomm] Computerizing Common Sense
good article, but what in the world does this mean? lol
<snip>
Won't input from the public bring in a lot of garbage? I'll have an
OpenCyc committee to help vet
knowledge that is suggested. Also, we've
developed the notion of local consistency, which is
analogous to our everyday notion of the earth as
being locally flat and globally spherical.
</snip>
- Jon
Eugene Lebedev wrote:
Hi everybody, I think the link below could bring us a lot of
inspiration andmay be some fresh strategic ideas.
http://www.idg.net/ic_844402_1794_9-10000.html Eugene
_______________________________________________ alicebot-archcomm
mailing list alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm
_______________________________________________ alicebot-archcomm
mailing list alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>Two=20
additional files you may find useful wrt Opencyc</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002>OpenCyc KB in DAML format (they forgot the =
update the=20
date side bar so it looks old)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002><STRONG><A=20
href=3D"http://www.cyc.com/2002/04/08/cyc.daml">http://www.cyc.com/2002/0=
4/08/cyc.daml</A></STRONG></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002>ThoughtTreasure in CycL format. Lots of =
assertions=20
about everyday stuff.<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.signiform.com/tt/ttkb/tt0.00022.cycl.gz"><STRONG>http:=
//www.signiform.com/tt/ttkb/tt0.00022.cycl.gz</STRONG></A></SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>Also=20
some additional KB pointers at </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002><A=20
href=3D"http://www.daxtron.com/Ontology.htm">http://www.daxtron.com/Ontol=
ogy.htm</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>Same=20
here with the early download. Got it running and checking it out. It is=20
currently more like Rich's Prolog PSYCH, only with a full first order =
predicate=20
calculus engine optimized for set relation processing and term indexing =
instead=20
of a generic prolog engine. Think a pre-filled logic engine. Template =
based=20
parser to follow. (Hmmmm, sounds like a job for a certain language I=20
know....)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>Rich's=20
complaint about the corporate welfare is not totally without merit, I =
just see=20
it as an emergent phenomenon of their origin and business. CYC corp =
started as=20
part of MCC which was a government/industry response to Japan's logic =
based=20
fifth generation computing project in the 1980's (which you can also get =
free=20
online now). When Cyc was spun off, they stuck close to the money supply =
to keep=20
the staff. I worked at Generous Dynamics for several years, and every =
DOD=20
aircraft problem required an F-16 solution. Close Air Support ? F-16. =
Deep=20
Strike? F-16. Strategic Bombing? F-16. Anti-satellite weapon launch =
platform?=20
F-16. Did you know it can be used for forward resupply? So it wouldn't =
surprise=20
me that the CYC group would write up papers for every request for =
proposal where=20
a computer has to put two facts together. It would surprise me if they =
didn't.=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002>(p.s. I really am a pokadotted dog =
libertarian.=20
However, no mater how much I would hope for better I just don't expect=20
better/different behavior given the=20
environment.)</DIV></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>From=20
walking around the outside of the blackbox I agree that the internals =
are=20
probably a mess, but for a reason. While everything can be defined in=20
logic, implementing it would be dog slow relative to what they want =
to do.=20
The Japanese attacked the problem by building special hardware. The Cyc =
team did=20
it all in software, and waited 15 years for technology to catch up. So =
there are=20
lots of optimization's, that short out the clean logic model yet give =
logically=20
consistent answers. They also index every single term they store and =
infer, no=20
matter what the position. Kinda like google indexing the web. How they =
do both,=20
get logically consistent results without killing the speed is probably =
their=20
core 'secret'. But something similar could be said for the Alicebot =
Graphmaster.=20
Also, part of the 15 year delay may be that finally PC's have enough =
power to=20
run it and give you answers in your life time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>An=20
analogy to graphics processing comes to mind. While photorealistic =
generation is=20
well know, and can be implemented with raytracing, doing so is just to =
slow. So=20
when the first simulations came out, they used special hardware. That =
same=20
hardware is in most of our video cards. But the big gain in speed came =
from=20
optimizations and analysis. In first person shooters it came with =
raycasting, a=20
short cut way to make similar pictures in real time. Now what once cost=20
thousands and millions of dollars can be found in some cereal boxes. An =
when you=20
look at raycasters relative to raytracers, its not pretty with long =
lapses into=20
assembly for efficiency. But it does work.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>The=20
nice thing about finally having a "free" copy is you can prove to =
yourself that=20
it is not a dwarf on the inside, or its not relaying all the data to a =
bank of=20
question answerers in Bangkok. Using a prolog analogy, the prolog engine =
is free=20
but not open, but all the predefined logic is both free and open, and=20
modifiable. You can browse it, submit queries,and knowledge to it =
and ask=20
for explanations. You can dump the insides out in XML/DAML format, and =
mine it=20
for gems. You can put it on your Linux watch, as long as its x86 =
compatible and=20
have 256 MB free. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>Other=20
gov funded, basically welfare projects have had positive benefit, mostly =
in the=20
infrastructure arena. Wither Cyc is a on par in the long run with say =
the Hoover=20
Dam or the shuttle however remains to be proven. I do think Lenat =
and=20
company were 'True Believers' when they started the project. Did they =
invest 15=20
years of their life in it because they still believe in it, or just =
because it=20
became the thing to do? (like staying in a bad marriage or job because =
you have=20
nothing else to do). And just because you believe in something does not =
mean=20
anyone else will find any good in it. We are about to find out both what =
they=20
really believe and just how useful it is. They are about to find out if =
the past=20
15 years have been worth it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002>Enjoy,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002>Kino</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D900050321-10042002>p.s.=20
Has anyone written a Lisp or Prolog AIML interpreter? If so you could =
write one=20
in OpenCyc, and beat the parser wait.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D900050321-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org=20
[mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Anne=20
Kootstra<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:06 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[alicebot-archcomm]=20
Computerizing Common Sense<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D140560117-10042002>Yes, I was able=20
to download it but that was about two days ago.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR><B>Van:</B>=20
alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org=20
[mailto:alicebot-archcomm-admin@list.alicebot.org]<B>Namens </B>Jon=20
Baer<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> woensdag 10 april 2002 =
18:44<BR><B>Aan:</B>=20
alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re:=20
[alicebot-archcomm] Computerizing Common =
Sense<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>If I=20
could ever get to download that 40mb file Id be able to say but I =
have not=20
had one iota of luck getting the whole thing. Sourceforge is =
so=20
painfully slow ... has anyone gotten to it yet?=20
<P>- Jon=20
<P>Eugene Lebedev wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>I =
would like=20
to get some understanding too. Does it mean something for ALICE or =
not?</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>The =
simplest ideas=20
are :</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1> - That =
knowledge=20
base could be quite useful for Alice.</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D-1> - Possible integration could give ALICE additional =
publicity.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1>But do we=20
need it? Do we have to consider integration with other technology =
at=20
all?</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>I'm =
sure that other=20
members could bring more interesting idea than =
these.</FONT></FONT>=20
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message =
-----</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:jonbaer@digitalanywhere.com"=20
title=3Djonbaer@digitalanywhere.com>Jon Baer</A></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org"=20
=
title=3Dalicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org>alicebot-archcomm@list.aliceb=
ot.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April =
10, 2002=20
12:14 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[alicebot-archcomm]=20
Computerizing Common Sense</DIV> good article, but what in =
the=20
world does this mean? lol=20
<P><snip> <BR>Won't input from the public bring in a lot =
of=20
garbage? I'll have an OpenCyc committee to help vet=20
=
<BR> &nb=
sp; =20
knowledge that is suggested. Also, we've developed the notion of =
local=20
consistency, which is=20
=
<BR> &nb=
sp; =20
analogous to our everyday notion of the earth as being locally =
flat and=20
globally spherical. <BR></snip>=20
<P>- Jon=20
<P>Eugene Lebedev wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Hi everybody,</FONT></FONT> =
<FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>I think the link below could =
bring us a lot=20
of inspiration andmay be some fresh strategic =
ideas.</FONT></FONT>=20
<FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.idg.net/ic_844402_1794_9-10000.html">http://www.idg.ne=
t/ic_844402_1794_9-10000.html</A></FONT></FONT>=20
<FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
=
size=3D-1>Eugene</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>______________________________=
_________________=20
alicebot-archcomm mailing list =
alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org <A=20
=
href=3D"http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm">http=
://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm</A></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/BLOCKQUOTE>_______________________________________________=20
alicebot-archcomm mailing list alicebot-archcomm@list.alicebot.org=20
http://list.alicebot.org/mailman/listinfo/alicebot-archcomm=20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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