[alicebot-aiethics] Academic Ethics

[Tamara Thompson]

hmm, interesting point about the cost of going to college. (I'm ingnoring the
fact that your response seemed  to be extremely negative...'cause I like you)

I've had an interesting life, and one thing I've never been able to pin down
exactly in words is how powerful university was for me.  (I respect Robby
highly, and have heard his stories and others', about how stupid university
rules and regs can be, and how they can hurt a brilliant person)

But I recieved something at university--something very hard to explain to
people, that I really long to communicate to others.  I am not sure what that
'thing' is.  I interacted with people of many different backgrounds and races,
I took classes that ranged from physics to poetry, almost flunked 'economics'
because I was falling asleep during class.  :)
Flunked russian art history (I never went) and at least one physics class too.
(waves)
It was illuminating, just being there in the midst of it.  It was beyond
financial measurement, I couldn't pay someone to give that variety of
experience to my child....She'll just have to find a way to go to university
and find it for herself.  And hopefully teach me too, all the new things she
learns.

I have no idea yet how we'll afford to send her to college, or how she might
earn her way through it.  But it's importance, I don't doubt.  I hear a lot of
biz kinda guys talking university down these days, usually they want to *sell*
someone some *quick success* thing.  They have no idea what I'm talking
about--recently I told one guy who'd been the victim of that anti-college talk
from some dealer/con guy that "university is where you learn that photons are
more important that a fast buck"--I am not sure what I meant by that.  Only
that I am sure that photons are more important.  <smile>  and that a university
'ethics' class had had a great impact on me.  (thanks to professor Kane, who
spit and inspired us all with his logic)

Maybe college taught me to question and evaluate, to measure, to compare units,
and maybe that is why con artists are so obvious?   (I'm not totally immune to
cool talkers of course)

Wow.  I do have some audacity here don't I?  I've talked on and on, and never
even written a bot.  I apologize for my arrogance.  But I think you are
misquided if you teach your children not to appreciate higher
education--university was the first time I felt free and in control of my life;
I had to schedule and attend my classes, I was the only one responsible for my
success, and it turned out public university wasn't as pathetic as public grade
schools had been for me.

I'm sure you'll hate this, but I carry this in my wallet, it's a 'Chinese
proverb':
"do not confine your children to your own learning, for they were born in
another time".    For me it means that I cannot force college on my child of
course...but I can hope she'd go, and find what I found there: an open door and
endless learning available to her.  Dollars don't seem so valuable compared to
education.

Hope this doesn't sound as soap box as it appears to me.  I struggle everyday
to figure out what is different about me and my coworkers, I'm not better than
they are, but I see the world differently.  I think something about university
gave me a freedom to look at things from many angles.  I don't know if that is
a good or a bad thing.  I do not know.  Just that I am willing to accept other
realities.

hoping our children's lives are better than ours,
Tamara





Richard Wallace wrote:

> I think the Henry Kissinger remark about low stakes in academia refers more
> to the jockeying for prestige and position among employed professors.  It
> can't refer to the real-life high-stakes game of taking away a person's
> salary and health care benefits because they don't like the way talk or act.
> I have a kid too and I am afraid for his future.  You can't really advise
> kids to go to college, at least in the U.S., in good conscience.  They will
> be saddled with a massive debt and little to show for it, unless someone
> reforms the system before they get there.
> Rich
>
> Donate to the ALICE A.I. Foundation "Cooler than Humans" -- TIME
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tamara Thompson" <txt5593@earthlink.net>
> To: <alicebot-aiethics@list.alicebot.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [alicebot-aiethics] Academic Ethics
>
> > <deftly putting safety helmet on head for protection from irate tomato
> > tossers..>
> >
> > do I dare? hmmm...<grin>  <id says: life is to explore, and what is the
> > next frontier if isn't our own minds?>  <ego says:  you've made enough
> > mistakes to know not to make this one again..>
> >
> > Richard, <groan>,
> >
> > Have you ever noticed that humans are unethical and behave badly
> > everywhere?
> > It's very *fair* of you to call academia on those transgressions of
> > decency, because we idolize academia and expect people in that arena to
> > be _above_ the usual human bs.  We trust them.  But they are _just_
> > humans.  In fact, it's worse there because, as I've quoted Henry Kandrup
> > as quoting before "the fighting in academia is so vicious because the
> > stakes are so low"  (meaning money, reward)
> >
> > I keep struggling to achieve the power and peace of NOT
> > REACTING emotionally to imbeciles and injustice.   Sometimes, that seems
> > to be the best way to process and understand, and perhaps counteract,
> > those events.  I uh, well, I fail my own test of neutrality and logic
> > more that I like to admit.   Maybe I'm just human, maybe I am a
> > particulary unenlightened stupid bimbo.  But you are obviously capable
> > of great things.
> >
> > Naively maybe, I have come to believe that we can only change things by
> > becoming what we want to become, education by example.  Can't fix the
> > others, can't change them, can't control them.
> >
> > Why in the world would I stick my dandelion head up, respond to your
> > post, and possibly get whollopped for my humble opinion?  I'm still
> > asking myself that.  I think it's because I have seen this module
> > before, (in my own father), and it usually results in a very smart,
> > valuable human wasting cycles on anger and frustration and unproductive
> > desires for revenge.  Thus negating the power of that individual to
> > contribute great things to our culture.  I have an 8 year old kid;  from
> > my dumb perspective, I need every capable thinker out there making the
> > universe better.
> > (sentimentality, but very sincere-- I am scared)
> >
> > I learned a lot talking to bots, they showed me how I sounded, how
> > important it is to communicate productively and concisely and clearly.
> > I am still learning.  I never met a bot that wanted to fight.  <smile>
> >
> > oh very humbly and apologetically,
> > Tamara
> >
> > ps: again, the best revenge against one's enemies, if one needs it, is
> > to live a happy life.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard Wallace wrote:
> >
> > > I can't believe I just got off the phone from yelling at the chairman
> > > of the Carnegie Mellon computer science department.  I was trying to
> > > engage some professors there in a constructive dialogue about academic
> > > reform.  One of them, David Touretzsy, wrote back and threatened to
> > > file a complaint with my ISP if I contacted him again.  Naturally I
> > > had not threatened him or said anything offensive.  Ironically,
> > > Touretzsky promotes himself as a social reformer, who posts DeCCS code
> > > on his web site and attacks the Church of Scientology.  God forbid the
> > > critical eye should be turned on the Church of Science however!I was
> > > mad as hell and called up the chairman to complain about him I said
> > > "James Morris?  This is Dr. Richard S. Wallace calling."  He muttered
> > > something like "Oh no" or "Oh God".  I said I was a poor person living
> > > on disability and Touretzky was a rich professor, and he had to right
> > > to threaten me like that.  Then I told him that I had asked many times
> > > for my great alumni to help me and received nothing but this kind of
> > > abuse in return.  Then I told him that it was wrong for him to stand
> > > by while his colleagues at NYU engage in criminal conduct, and do
> > > nothing.  He was basically a jerk and said very little.  Actually it
> > > seemed like he was drunk.  He said he would call Touretzky and tell
> > > him to stop.  I concluded by informing him that professors can no
> > > longer get away with destroying people's lives and careers, because
> > > now they can use the Internet to tell their story. Such is the status
> > > of real life ethical decision in academia! Rich Donate to the ALICE
> > > A.I. Foundation
> > > "Cooler than Humans" -- TIME
> >
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